After our education is completely destroyed...then what?

[70s_guy]

As an educator, I side with smcrorey on this... I'm tired of the christians messing with education - period. Actually, I'm tired of christians across the board... Tired of reading about them on the front page of the newspaper, tired of seeing their stupid billboards littering the highway, tired of being accosted by them on my front porch....

[claimtruth]

When it comes to Christianity and salvation, everyone has to make their own choice. Forcing a belief onto someone else doesn’t do much of anything for the recipient. I can’t “make” my children be Christians-that is up to them. My kids haven’t finished their spiritual journey and I want them to learn everything that they can. I want them to discover truth. Discovering truth is a journey. And not everyone’s truth is the same.
There is no way one person can force Faith onto another. Faith is something that I want and desire, but I have struggled and do struggle with it. Ultimately it is a choice.
This thread has opened my eyes a lot. There is a lot of emotion behind the posts here

[IronfootMcGurk]

Vote went as expected. From the NYT at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/educa ... texas.html, quote:

'...There are seven members of the conservative bloc on the board, but they are often joined by one of the other three Republicans on crucial votes. There were no historians, sociologists or economists consulted at the meetings, though some members of the conservative bloc held themselves out as experts on certain topics.

'The conservative members maintain that they are trying to correct what they see as a liberal bias among the teachers who proposed the curriculum. To that end, they made dozens of minor changes aimed at calling into question, among other things, concepts like the separation of church and state and the secular nature of the American Revolution.

'“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”

'They also included a plank to ensure that students learn about “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schalfly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.” '

They don't leave it to teachers or to the scholars who wrote the books. Instead they prescribe what goes into the textbooks based on their political and religious outlook. Which may to some extent mirror the majority of their constituents. Which means that the content of textbooks is a matter of majority opinion, that there are no facts, just perspectives.

Well, we can console ourselves that high school textbooks are rarely kept and cherished and reread anyway. And most of what is taught is forgotten (if it was ever learned).

[smcrorey]

I've decided that there is not any way that I can discuss this topic without losing my cool .. I can't contribute anything more past this:

I'm 10000% against this movement to integrate and replace portions or all of our kids curriculum with with religion. I find it to be a travesty; a step in the wrong direction; a blatant disregard for the importance of our childrens' educations.

CT, you're good people and don't deserve the venom that I apparently can't force myself not to spew.

[claimtruth]

I've decided that there is not any way that I can discuss this topic without losing my cool .. I can't contribute anything more past this:

I'm 10000% against this movement to integrate and replace portions or all of our kids curriculum with with religion. I find it to be a travesty; a step in the wrong direction; a blatant disregard for the importance of our childrens' educations.

CT, you're good people and don't deserve the venom that I apparently can't force myself not to spew.

For what it's worth, I would be against religion being taught in school. I agree that if parents want their kids to learn more about Christianity, then Sunday school class and church is the appropriate place for that, or private Christian schools(unfortunately that is an expensive choice). I don't think anyone's child should be subjected to learning religion or Bible verses in public schools. But I also disagree that the mention of Christianity and the facts associated with the history of it should be kept out of text books. Maybe I just misunderstand what is being proposed?

A side note...my son came home from school Wednesday and told me that a student in his human geography class was made to sit in the hall because while the teacher was discussing evolution, he raised his hand and said he believed that animals and people were created and that evolution wasn't real. I asked my son if the student was being disrespectful to the teacher and he said not at all, that he just raised his hand and quietly made the statement and the teacher sent him out in the hall.

[smcrorey]

For what it's worth, I would be against religion being taught in school. I agree that if parents want their kids to learn more about Christianity, then Sunday school class and church is the appropriate place for that, or private Christian schools(unfortunately that is an expensive choice). I don't think anyone's child should be subjected to learning religion or Bible verses in public schools. But I also disagree that the mention of Christianity and the facts associated with the history of it should be kept out of text books. Maybe I just misunderstand what is being proposed?

Does your understanding include the dilution, and omission of the importance of the works and words of Thomas Jefferson? After all, what did Thomas Jefferson ever do for the United States of America? .. He signed the Constitution, but hell, who didn't? He penned the Declaration of Independence, but hell, anyone could have done that. He's quoted as one of the most influential men in the founding of our nation, but it really could have been anyone anyway.

The problem I have with the inclusion of religion in kids educations boils down to 2 things:

1.) Christian Fundamentalists aren't looking for inclusion. They are re-writing history to suit their arguments which will inevitably lead to the establishment of a "National Religion." Congratulations, your religious rights circumvent the rights of anyone who doesn't believe the way you do, simply because you're a member of the team.. And all you have to do is just give up all pretense of self, thought, rationality, and education... and so do our kids.

2.) When the dust settles and Thomas Jefferson doesn't exist, and anyone else who isn't or wasn't a Christian is diluted and stripped from the pages of history... Which particular flavor of Christianity are we going to indoctrinate the kids of our nation with? Have the Christians thought this far ahead? Will we be playing with rattlesnakes? Will our kids be eating unleavened bread and wine for lunch? Will idolatry in the name of Catholicism be the game of the day? Will we teach our kids that we're all going to hell anyway, but in the meantime there will be no dance, no music, no pants for girls? Hellfire and brimstone instead of Science and Technology? Will "Tongues As A Second Language" be an elective? How about the "Holy Sword" in gym?

The problem is, CT, the idiots who are making the changes don't care what I think. They also don't care what you think. Everything that you just outlined that you are against, they are for, and this is apparent in every press release concerning this particular issue. You started your reply by saying I shouldn't be angry. CT, you SHOULD be angry.

The radical christian position in this debate, fight, war, is to CHANGE HISTORY. Congratulations to the folks who love their freedoms so much that they are willing to depose the freedoms of others in order to maintain and expand their own. Our nation was _not_ founded on Christianity. There is no documentation ANYWHERE to support this theory. Well, at least there wasn't.. Until Thomas Jefferson was cut from curriculum and history has been completely, and I meant COMPLETELY changed.

Where's the harm in just adding some mention of christianity into the textbooks? None! If it were factual to what really transpired, but these groups aren't looking for facts. They are looking to CHANGE facts to suit their position. This is highly irresponsible, dangerous, vile, and hurtful activity.

Given the opportunity, I would spit in the face of every single member on the board who has pushed for these changes. They are not friends. They are not good people. They aren't even good Christians. They aren't holy or spiritual at all. These are evil people with evil agendas, and they have the Christian Republican base following in lock-step.

How can people who profess to be so good, and so moral be so evil? How??

A side note...my son came home from school Wednesday and told me that a student in his human geography class was made to sit in the hall because while the teacher was discussing evolution, he raised his hand and said he believed that animals and people were created and that evolution wasn't real. I asked my son if the student was being disrespectful to the teacher and he said not at all, that he just raised his hand and quietly made the statement and the teacher sent him out in the hall.

Poor kid. While it doesn't really matter because the christian fundamentalists are winning, I would say the kid was out of his element. He needed to be in special classes, not the hallway. The damage that his parents and religion have done to his ability to learn, accept, and retain scientific information is astounding. Perhaps he aspires to be an evangelist, in which case, the point of education is moot.

The sympathy I have for this kid is for the mental and educational abuse that he's received at the hands of his parents and church. Not being told to leave so that the teacher wouldn't have to debate with a religious nutjob what was already in curriculum and is presented as a theory. It's the Theory of Evolution, not the Fact of Evolution, but I tell ya.. this theory has a lot more scientific foundation and evidence than "Suddenly *poof!* There were like, people, and animals, and clouds, and mountains and s***, and this invisible, all powerful force (who choses to not be known or shown) did it all with his miiiiind, man! HIS MIND!!!! HOLY s***, MAAAAAAAAAN!"

I feel for the teacher too. I could imagine that in the midst of a lecture that's taken me however long to prepare, after getting the class settled down, and into the lecture that I wouldn't have a lot of patience for this kid either. Christians, by and large, are impossible to convince of anything that's not fantastic. If it can't walk on water, if it isn't magically apparent, or if it has any foundation in anything other than faith, it's a lost cause to debate. I would have asked the kid to leave too, but I would have taken it further than that. I would have given him an assignment not in anyway related to evolution to do out in the hallway, and in my own time I would write up a disclaimer/permission slip for the student to take home to the parents outlining my intentions of speaking on a subject that they may not agree with, and require that signature before said student would be allowed to attend my lecture. By the way, if he didn't and it was all for a grade, I'd fail him faster than fast.

Is there really a polite way to say, "Pardon me, teach, but everything you're telling us right now, I consider to be complete and utter bull****. So..." What exactly would you have had the teacher do? Change the lesson on the fly to better suit the religious flavor of this one student? And if there's such a majority, why was this student alone in their protest? This kid belongs in a special school where his parents and religious leaders can abuse him without the real world getting in the way.

I hope beyond hope that somehow these people grow a brain before May. I don't, however, have faith that they will.

[70s_guy]

The teacher should have said, "well, Jimmy, that is what you believe, but it doesn't mean anything more than someone believing in bigfoot, or that aliens walk among us. We are looking at evidence and there is a whole bunch of it in the fossil record. There is also a whole bunch of it in the DNA of organisms alive today - we can determine which species are more or less closely related to other species - including human beings. So let's not make creation, Santa Claus, tooth fairies, bigfoot, or aliens a part of this lesson, ok?".

[claimtruth]

Really 70's? You would ridicule a child for standing up for his belief?
It's ironic to me that those who rebuke having others beliefs forced upon them are the most closed minded.

I think I see where you're coming from Smcrorey, the idea of a "national religion" is a scary one.
My fear is on the opposite end of the spectrum. As more and more people ridicule Christians and Christians are shunned, will that lead to persecution?

How can people who profess to be so good, and so moral be so evil? How??

Because they're NOT good. There are very very evil people who claim to be good and who claim to be Christian's. But they're not-they're evil. What better place for them to spread their evil than as an influential Christian. Analogy: Think of Star Wars II and the Supreme Chancellor. He was supposed to be the most moral of the moral, but he wasn't, he was the one that led Anakin Skywalker to the darkside. (that analogy was actually from my pastor today)That's how evil works. They're false prophets, a "wolf in sheep's clothing".
We all need to have discernment so we can know the difference.

[smcrorey]

Can we count on yours and your church's support in overturning the proposed changes by the evil people on the Darkside of the Texas State Board of Education? We've got til May.

[IMissReagan]

Relying on the school to teach your child everything is a little optimistic. They teach what they teach, I fill in the rest. Some rely too much on government. There's no way everyone is going to agree on a curriculum, so explain the things that you think need explaining and if your are concerned about Jefferson being left out- then fill your child in about him.

It's called being a parent.